Brent Martin
Boots Hanson
Wint Hartman
Orly Thorsjo
Maury Onstrander
Sievert Rasmusson
Brent:
Wint, what we’d like to do is get a perspective on Many Point. Why here and why at the time it was a very daring endeavor?
Wint:
It was the Minneapolis Council, not the Viking Council. Their main Camp was on Lake Minnetonka and was known as Camp Tonkawa. There was Camp Robinson Crusoe, on Wauwatosa Island. These were mass Camps I went to as a boy and were very successful. You went as an individual, and the Camp formed Provisional Patrols and Troops. The Many Point adventure after some experimentation in the Council Camp at Tonkawa and Wauwatosa, Ness Lake and Stearns was an effort to emphasize the opportunity for a Scout to come to Camp with his Troop and Troop Leader. This idea had its beginnings in the Minneapolis Council under the leadership of Scout Executive, Lee Cornell who came here in 1939.
He knew that a great Scout Reservation would provide increasingly challenging opportunities for Scout Troops — as Baden Powell suggested in his original Scout Manual. “Fifty weeks of Scouting in preparation for the great adventure of two weeks at summer camp.” However, Lee, Bob and refined that a little bit; “Fifty weeks of Scouting in preparation for a great adventure at summer Camp; where you learn to work as a Troop; for fifty more weeks of better Scouting. “That’s the reason for Boy Scout Camping.
Brent:
In the Council, who was your most active supporter of this idea? I would suspect that with Tonkawa being at that time, probably twenty minutes out of Minneapolis, were some people critical of driving four hours, perhaps five hours then, by car to a remote place in Northern Minnesota?
Wint:
That was true; new ideas are always challenging to sell to people. I wouldn’t say some people were critical of it; they were just scared. They were afraid it might not work out the first year the Camp operated was successful. When we talked to people, we said, “well when you get in your car on Friday night, and you drive up to Northern Minnesota for day-and-a-half of fishing and drive home again on Sunday night; you drive a lot farther than the 235 miles to Many Point Scout Reservation.
Brent: When did the land acquisition begin?
Wint:
There was a group of men from the Board of Directors that worked with me and with Lee Cornell in the selection of the Many Point Scout site. In all, we looked at twenty-five different sites in the State of Minnesota, beginning in 1942. The latter part of 1942, into 1943, and the Spring of 1944 before this site finalized. This site has many things to offer that other sites did not have to offer. For example, this site was abundant in Minnesota’s history. The legends of Native Americans, loggers, pioneers, and settlers that chose this place to live. Many Point was a contiguous body of land that we attempted to put together, about eighteen-hundred acres. It was made up of twenty-four different land parcels.
Wint:
The Council would own 1,800 acres of land including the original 800 acres that were owned by the Many Point Rod and Gun Club. The Gun Club was adjacent to 177,000 acres of the Tamarac National Wildlife Refuge. In the working with the Department of Interior, we secured the right to have our Scouts access and use the Tamarac Wildlife Refuge.
Orly:
Wint, tell them about the final, fateful Board of Directors meeting at Christie’s Point; that made it all happen.
Wint:
There were some resorts on this lake. Sievert Rasmussen ran Whaley’s Resort There was Eddie Wilson’s Resort On the far South-East corner of the lake, there was Christie’s Resort and also Bill’s Point Resort (where Family Camp now is). At that time, neither Christie’s or Bill’s Point were operating. Sievert and Boots remember the year of that final decision. At the far end of the lake where the Otter Tail River flows out of the lake, there was an old bridge made up of two logs; that’s all there was. There were just two logs the width of an automobile tread that went across the Ottertail River. The Board of Directors held their breath as we crossed. (smiles) The loggers that worked up here drove their trucks across and didn’t have any trouble at all.
So, we brought the Minneapolis Council Board of Directors up here in the summer of that year, and we didn’t tell them about this bridge ahead of time because we were afraid, they wouldn’t come. We made arrangements to put them up at Christie’s Resort. Some of them had grave doubts about what we were doing to them as they approached this bridge and rode across on two logs. All you had to have was a steady hand otherwise you’d fall in the Ottertail River.
The weekend began on a Friday night. The men on the Board, some of whom had been here previously, toured the land that came to the North end of the lake into Fish Hook Bay. All walked together along with the old railroad grade, that’s now the entrance to the Camp. They also walked all along the Little Beaver Creek. On the final evening, we walked over the property to the Many Point Rod and Gun Club.
Orly:
Why don’t you mention for the group some of the key figures of that Board and who they were?
Wint:
There were some very substantial people on that Board of Directors. Mr. Art Larkin, the President of Republic Creosoting, was the president of the Council. There was Art Digert, the friend of the operating Vice President of Ingersoll. A prominent Milling Company Executive. Fred Paul, the Minneapolis City Engineer. There was Charlie K. Velie who was from the John Deere Farm Implement family. In all, there were about 30 men from the Board that came up here and on that final night had a campfire, down there at Christie’s. Even before the campfire, the men had decided that this was to be the site of Many Point Scout Reservation.
Wirt
That afternoon I went out into the woods and cut a big sheet of Birch Bark. We wrote out a commitment from all of us for the building of Many Point Scout Reservation. In a ceremony, at the campfire, that night, each of those men came up and signed the Birch Bark Scroll. I rolled it up and put it into a big two-gallon bean pot that sat in my office for years. When I left Minneapolis in 1953 to become the Director of Camping in Philadelphia, that beanpot, scroll, with the ashes from that campfire went missing.
Brent
Before Camp opened, you hired a man that had been working for Northern Pump. Would you be interested in saying a few words about him and maybe he can defend himself.
Wint:
My understanding was that the fellow was to be a temporary employee. (laughter) 1946, I hired him to come up here and be the Provisional Scoutmaster of the Pioneer Scouts. The Scouts lived at Christies Point, built trails, campsites and did other things that were necessary to the preliminary opening of Camp. They worked mornings and sometimes when Boots was ornery, they worked in the afternoons even though they were supposed to have the afternoons off. The plan was, Boots came and took that job, and he was to stay through the summer. Boots said he had to go back to his family in town and so he’d be leaving. I said, “come on down to Gaylord’s Lodge, the log lodge of the Gun Club in those days, which has played a significant part in the development of this Camp. I said to Boots, “come down, and we’ll sit on the porch and talk.” So, I persuaded Boots to stay another 30 days, and he and I never discussed it after that again. We never discussed another thirty days beyond the original 30 days. After what, 29 years wiser tonight; this temporary employee finally went home.
Brent: Boots, did you work out okay then?
Boots: I guess so. (laughter)
Wint: We never discussed it.
Brent: Do you have any response to that, and were they good years?
Boots:
They were pretty good. In December of 1946, I went to Minneapolis and brought my family up. It was December 7 when I brought the kids and mommy to the unfinished cabin. For two cents Olga and the kids would have gone back to Minneapolis. They stayed, and after they had been here a while, you couldn’t move them out of here. The night we arrived, he gave me a pack of blueprints this big and this long (gesturing with his hands), and said here, this Camp will open in 1947. Only a portion of the Buckskin Dining Hall was completed in the Spring of 47. All you saw around here was whittling without any windows and no doors, nothing. Wint and I sat upstairs with the contractor and told him that, “next Monday, you have to move out because we have the cooks moving in.” He sat there with tears in his eyes and said, “I haven’t finished.” Wint said, “Our cooks are moving in.” So, he moved out and, in our cooks, moved. This building needed finishing, and we hired Sievert to finish it with another crew.
Boots:
In the Spring of 1947, Maury Ostrander came up to Direct the Camp. He called a meeting in the Dining Hall one night; with the whole staff of eighteen. Since then, we’ve got to send the staff out here (pointing to the addition to the Dining Hall.)
After about ten or twelve years, I got a call from Wint who was in Chicago. He wanted me to work with him down there. I told the girls and mommy, “They want me in Chicago, and I’m going.” They said, “No, we’re not; we’re staying here.” So, thirty years later, I moved away.
It was fun; I would like to be a Camp Ranger now because of larger budgets; you can get everything that’s needed. When I took the job, Wint gave me a purchase order book and said, “You take this book and buy anything that you need for this Camp.” I needed forty axes and went to all the big wholesale houses. I went to one place, and they said, “yeah, we got one.” Went to another one, “We got two.” I needed to get thirty-eight more. I hauled all this stuff over to my duplex in Minneapolis at that time; and stored the materials there. When I got a full load, then I came up to Many Point.
I asked Wint, “How do I get to Many Point?” Wint said you go to Park Rapids. Then you go West about a mile, and I think you turn on 225. When you get to Ponsford, follow the telephone lines. When you run out of telephone lines, go a little farther to where the road turns in, so I turned in. I had this big truck that had 5 tons of stuff for Many Point. An Indian came down the road with a team of horses and a wagon. Now, where was I going to go? He finally took off. I got up a little farther, and there was a sawmill. I got out and asked how far away is it to Johnson truck trail? Sixty rods was the answer. It was the most extended 60 rods I drove in my life. I got up to where the Y was by the Gate Lodge and started down that road. If you remember that was an old railroad grade that was built only for winter travel. I got a little farther, and the roadway was under water. I remembered Wint had said, “You’re supposed to take this.” I made it down to the Beach and unloaded part of the load. The truck would not go up the hill by the Beach. The wheels just spun because of all the rain and the greasy road. I then had to take the rest of the load around the lake. Here I am all alone with no help, no telephone, nothing.
I had a big one-inch rope in the truck. I cut it in half, made chains out of the line, and wrapped it around the duels. While I was doing that an Indian showed up and started putting branches down on these trails. I finally got over the hill, and I had to go all the way to Ponsford. How do I get from there to Sievert’s place? I stopped at a filling station and asked. “Where’s Sievert Rasmusson’s Resort?” Guy said, “I don’t know. I was born right here in town.” I asked, “How do I get to Whaley’s Resort, that’s close by?” Guy said, “You go this way and then that way.” I took off. I saw Ice Cracking Lodge and stopped for a bottle of pop, and it was pop too. I asked the guy, “How do I get to Rasmusson’s Resort?” He said, “Right down here, you cross the Ottertail River, stay to the right and take that road.” I got to Rasmusson’s. He wasn’t home; he was out on the lake. He came, and I told him what I wanted, he said it was too late and to stay overnight. I stayed overnight there, and the next morning, he drove his Model T with a high clearance ahead of me, and I followed him.
Boots:
He gets down to Akin’s Resort and leaves his car there. Just two tracks went up into the woods. If you met anybody, you had to back up as far as you have come. I got to the Ottertail River, stopped, and the two darn planks were leaning. I looked, and Sievert said, “Aren’t you going to cross? I’ve been hauling logs across that.” I put her in super low gear and got across it.
Orly: Clutching your purchase order book?
Boots: Yeah, we made it, unloaded and I went back home.
Brent: When did you return with the Scouts?
Boots:
July 7, 1946. They came in on a school bus by way of Ice Cracking Lodge. I met them down there and brought them by truck up to the campsite. I gave them each a GI bar of soap, and said from now on you’ll wash every night there’s your bathtub, pointing to the lake. They took a bath there every night.
We only had one case of poison ivy. A Scout from Minneapolis brought anti-poison ivy pills with him from his doctor. The doctor told him to take the pills, and he’d be alright. So, he took medicines. One night at about midnight, the Scouts came and rapped on my door. The Scout had poison ivy from his head down to his toenails. I had the Jeep, put some mattresses in the back, and hauled him to the Detroit Lakes Hospital. The nurse said, “You can’t get any doctors now.” I said, lead me to a telephone. In ten minutes, I had a doctor there. This kid was in the hospital for nine days.
Wint and I would talk with the kids about safety and keeping the equipment sharp every night. We only had one accident at Camp. One Scout was working down by the C Lodge and cut his foot I was down here with the other crew. Wint said, “I told you last night to keep your axes sharp.” “See what happens with a dull ax?” The kid said, “This was Boots’ axe.” (laughter)
Brent: Did you arrange for Sievert to come and work at the Camp?
Wint:
Sievert was the first employee of Many Point Scout Camp. I was doing business with a realtor by the name of Baker in Detroit Lakes. When I bought Christie’s Resort for the Council, I was afraid that some of the Natives who needed lumber, would carry off the Resort in the winter time.
Wint:
Sievert and I had a little joke about this. I said to Baker, “I need somebody to go down and look at the Resort and make some tracks around it so that people wouldn’t carry it away, while it’s not occupied.” He said, “I think I know just the man you’re looking for.” So, he drove me out here, in an early afternoon in early November, I knocked of Sievert’s door. That’s when I first employed Sievert. The little joke that we have about this is that I said to Sievert, “How much money do you want to go down the lake twice a week, make some tracks down there because there’s been a place down their called Robber’s Roost.” One winter, some Natives came in and carried it off the Board by Board.
I said to Sievert, “How much money do you want to go down there on snowshoes or skies twice a week, make tracks around there. Let people know that someone is watching the place.” Sievert said, “How about ten dollars a month?” I said, TEN DOLLARS A MONTH.” and he thought; I thought it was too much. I said, “No, I don’t think that’s too much.” “I’ll pay you ten dollars a week to do that.” That’s how Sievert started to work for the Boy Scouts here at Many Point. After I got to know Sievert better, of course, I discovered Sievert was good for something more than skiing down the lake. He was a master craftsman with wood. Much of the woodwork in this Camp is Sievert’s work. Siefert made the beautiful things that are still here this day and have been here for more than 40 years. He is the original Many Point Scout Reservation employee.
Brent:
Did you run into any unexpected problems when you built the Conservation Lodge and the Dining Hall?
Sievert: No, I don’t think so.
Brent: Were the timbers cut on Many Point property
Sievert Logs came from the woods here on the Boy Scout land.
Brent: Were there still large stands of White Pines?
Sievert: No, there wasn’t much White Pine left.
Brent:
Could you tell us a little about the man who built the split rock fireplace in the Conservation Lodge?
Sievert: He was a good stone mason.
Boots:
That was craftsman Bob Blanchard and his son from Osage. Bob was an expert at his trade. This big rock, I’ll show it to you if we go down to the “C” Lodge. Bob said to his son, “you hit it right here,” pointing to a spot on the rock. His kid was one of these; you can’t tell me how to do it guys. So, the kid stood and pounded and pounded, and all he got was chips. Bob said, “I told you to hit it here.” The kid hit it there, and it opened like a book. You can see those two matching rocks on the fireplace. I tried it, and all I got was chips. He built that one and the one at the Gate Lodge.
Boots:
Randall made this one in the Dining Hall and the one at Family Camp. If you look at the fireplace at Family Camp, there are deer tracks in the fireplace apron. When we were building it, the doors were open, and a deer ran through and put those tracks there.
Orly:
Brent, I think you need to come back to Sievert; as I think he’s too modest. I’ll tell you a couple of things about Sievert’s craftsmanship. I came here early on when we were putting up some of the large beams in the Dining Hall; and also, down in the C Lodge. There weren’t any of these big 15-foot front-end loaders. You know, big hydraulic powered things that lift the logs into place. Sievert had a pile of logs as high as the ceiling. I said, “Sievert, how do you get those massive beams up there, the big floor joists, the rafters, and stuff?” Sievert said, “You damn fool, you use a Yim pole.” I said, “What’s a Yim pole?” He said, “You dummy, just stick around, and you’ll see.” He goes out and cuts a couple of great big Poplar trees, put one up like this and one like that, attaches a block-and-tackle to them. All these beams were put in place with an old-fashioned loggers Yim pole. When every one of these beams came into place; they fit like one hand inside the other. He never hauled another one up as the first log always fit accurately. (Yim could have been a Jim Pole)
At the old Administration Building, (now Larkin’s Lodge) you go inside; you’ll notice that the logs are right there at the top of all the windows. When Sievert built that place, there was a space about (6 inches tall) above the windows; because log buildings shrink. Over the first three years those logs snuggled down, and I kid you not, they came right down; when they got to the windows, they stopped. Now that was either God or Sievert.
It was impressive when he and his helpers were laying logs. They used skinning poles to put each log course in place. You took a rope and rolled the log up on top. When the logs were on big sawhorses, they used draw knives to shape them. They would shave the wood while looking up at the rafters as to where that log was going to rest. Shaving the log with great skill and accuracy, they would roll it up, and it would go clunk into place. Stepping back, you didn’t see a crack of daylight between the log that was there and the one they just put down. They were looking at that thing 30 feet away. Sievert was that type of craftsman.
Boots:
When the Soo Line Railroad donated a water tank to the Camp; it came in pieces. We needed to install eight or ten big pilings in the ground. Red Paul, the Minneapolis City Engineer, came up to Camp and said, “when you get the cement poured; and the poles in, I’ll bring up my transit. Sievert and I went up with a string, square, and a level. We installed them so that they were uniform; all in line; and had pins in the middle of the cement. Fred Paul came back with his transit and installed the water tank on the first try.
Brent: Sievert, did you teach Boots how to fish? (laughter)
Sievert: No, no. He showed me; when he caught the big one.
Boots:
Sievert came up one day and said, “Let’s go fishing tomorrow.” I said, “fine.” So, he came over the next day at around six o’clock. I said, “I’m working on our generators and can’t come out right now. You take the boat, and I’ll join you later.” I fished from shore. Sievert came in about nine o’clock to shore. I said, “Did you catch any fish?” He said, “I got quite a few, and I got one big one, 26 inches long.” I said, “Gee, that’s a nice big fish.” He said, what did you get, I said: “I got a couple of perch and stuff” Just as I was pulling my line in, I hooked onto something; this is going to be something. It was an old rusty lantern; I brought it along with me tonight, and it was still burning. I said, “Sievert, you take 20 inches off that fish, and I’ll blow out that lantern!” (laughter)
Pat White (Scoutmaster Troop 22) came out here in 1946 with fifty kids. They camped on the right-hand side where the road ended. The first night, they pitched their tents close to the roadway, and they were there for a couple of nights. The next time I went down there, and you saw was Pat White’s tent and an old black coffee can sitting alongside him. Trails led off into the woods. And Pat said, if you follow that trail, you’ll find a Patrol up there. Follow this trail, and you’ll find another Patrol. The Patrols were all scattered up in the woods. Two smart kids had a great idea. They climbed a couple of poplar trees, formed a square, and hung a platform between two trees. We’ve got pictures of it.
Brent:
Wint, in 1947, you hired a man that had extensive experience at Tonkawa; to come up and be the summer Camping Director. He was well versed in athletics and had extensive experience in aquatics. How did you learn about Maury Ostrander?
Wint:
I found out about Maury because as a Scout, I was a camper at Camp Tonkawa. Maury was the Aquatics Director, and he taught me how to swim. (smiles and laughter) That’s how I met Maury. He had a lot of Camp experience was an excellent prospect to be the Camp Director.
Brent:
Maury, you previously directed the waterfront at Tonkawa. Did it seem unusual and a challenge to?
come to Many Point?
Maury:
Many Point changed my whole camping outlook. Tonkawa was a Provisional Camp, while Many Point was a Chartered Troops Camp. I had never been here before; bringing my wife and three daughters the first time. A lot of rain proceeded us in the days they were finishing the road into Camp. Even though they had these big tractors, shovels, and all that equipment, we got stuck and couldn’t move at all in our automobile.
Maury:
One of the tractor guys hooked onto my car and pulled us through streams and mud to dry land. We were then able to finish driving into Camp.
In 1947, the night before the Scouts arrived. New cement was poured at the Administration Building (now the Larkin Lodge building).
Maury:
To put my desk in the office, we used flattened cardboard cartons between my desk and the cement floor; this was so my office desk wouldn’t dig into the cement. It rained all night, and in the morning the road was still wet. We drove out to the Gate Lodge to meet the Troops, and we waited, and waited, and nobody came.
Boots took his Jeep out on the prairie road to look for the Troops. He found a line-up of cars; must have been about one-hundred yards long; about twenty-five to thirty vehicles, each trying to get here. They were all stuck. With the help of a truck with chain’s; the Jeep and a tractor, we started pulling the cars out.
Orly: All three rescue vehicles were chained together.
Maury:
Boy, what a mess that was. Our plans changed completely. It was midnight before we got them all to Camp. Not only that, but the night before, the cook, Elliot Rasmusson said, he was going to quit
Orly: He threw a kitchen meat cleaver in the kitchen, and it stuck in the wall.
Maury:
I did everything except getting down on my knees and beg Elliot to stay. Another problem in the kitchen; something got stuck in the drain, and the kitchen flooded. Thankfully, we finally convinced Elliot to stick around.
Orly was the most significant help a guy could have. He took charge of the staff and designed a program for the campers. Every staff person had a specific job, role, and function.
Wint: It was a good year.
Brent: That first summer, did you operate two camps (Areas); Buckskin and Ten Chiefs?
Orly: Three: Buckskin, Rangers, and Pioneer and the Troops had to cut their Troop sites. When you’re going back into the bush, by the Little Beaver Lake, where the brush and trees are thick today, that’s what it was like when the first Troops rolled in here. We took them out; said this is your campsite now. You couldn’t even see the sky, and the Troops carved out their sites.
Brent:
Were there any significant problems that the first summer? (lots of laughter with big smiles from all)
Orly: Yeah, getting up every morning. (more laughter)
Wint:
Because the contractor was behind schedule; having some bad weather and other things; that first summer was difficult. The difficulty created an opportunity, an attitude, a frame of mind, that the staff “COULD DO.”
Wint:
The staff in that first summer maintained high morale and had an approach of, there’s nothing that can lick us or get us down. They shouted, “we can do anything,” and they did. Despite all the problems, we had a positive first season.
Brent:
I think that is something that has remained true throughout the years with the staffs. Why were the Sea Scout Base and Air Base never finalized as seen on the original plan?
Wint:
I brought along some of the original drawings that I’ll share with you before you leave. There were several things in the original plan that never happened. You know you can do almost anything if you have enough money. With the problems of inflation after the War; it wasn’t possible for the Minneapolis Council to go ahead with those projects. The ideas are still good ideas, and the land is still there. Even the Tamarac Wildlife Refuge use plans, never came fruition. To this day, we haven’t gotten maximum usage out of One-hundred-Seventy-Seven Thousand Acres.
The plans for the buildings didn’t just happen. There was a purpose with exceptional objectives for every single Camp building. Siefert Rasmusson built the Gate Lodge. The idea of the Gate Lodge was two-fold; and achieved two significant things. One, it was supposed to create a feeling on the part of the arriving Scout, Leader, and Troop, that they had arrived at Camp. You drove up to the closed gate and a CIT (Counselor in Training) dressed in a sharp uniform, neckerchief, everything; welcomed you to Many Point Scout Camp; asked you, who you were; the number of your Troop, and the name your leader. They then opened the gate, and the Troop drove three miles down the Camp road to the Administration Building.
We had an old telephone line that ran from the Gate Lodge to the Administration building. The two Gate Lodge CIT’s called on the old crank telephone; and said that Troop so-and-so was on the way in under the leadership of this Scout Leader. When the Troop arrived at the Administration building (presently Larkin Lodge), a Staff member would walk out and say, “Hello Mr., Johnson, we’re glad to see you.” They knew they had arrived at the place, and this was the place to be.
The other essential function of the Gate Lodge: It was part of ten experiences that a CIT was to have. There were then, five (two weeks) operating periods in the Camp season. In the first year of CIT training, the CIT moved every two weeks to a new experience. Two weeks on the waterfront. Two weeks at the Conservation Lodge, Two weeks at, etc. The next year, he had five additional experiences. By the time he had reached an age of eighteen years of age and was eligible for a paid Staff position; he completed a kitchen experience, maintenance shop, administration building, down on the waterfront, or working in an Area. He had some empathy and understanding of the role and function of every member of the staff.
The Gate Lodge experience also gave the CIT’s an understanding of the importance of having quiet time for contemplation and reading. Each CIT had an assignment to read a couple of books and to do a project related to planning in the Camp. They turned in this report at the end of their two-week stay out there at the Gate Lodge.
Wint:
The shortcut to what this was all about, although we didn’t say this to them; was to give them a taste of the kind of experience that Thoreau had at Walden Pond. The CIT program was a success because it taught them to have an appreciation and empathy for what was happening in the rest of the Camp
Orly
Of those ten experiences, the CIT’s were always under the guise of an assigned Senior Staff member. They were there to learn to be positive role models and experience a sense of self-worth. They were something that the Scouts and Troops could look up to and say, “gee, I’d like to be like that guy.” For years, most of the leadership spots in the Camp transitioned with guys that came up from the CIT Program. Those jobs were never like in some fraternities and so forth when young people came on Board. There was no indulging in subtle forms of hazing, giving him the junk jobs and the crappy things to do, although there were those jobs to be done. That wasn’t the purpose of the seasoning, and that wasn’t the method of the seasoning. It was there to be an example.
I think that a lot of the discussion so far brings back more memories of the physical property, the buildings, and how harsh the weather was and so forth. The Program has a philosophy and a policy that says, “Our focus is strengthening the Troop and Patrol through unit camping. The Troop and Patrol focus on the individual boy.” That was a radical departure in American camping. The whole American Camping Association looked askance at that. Now, once you accept the idea of outdoor education for a Troop as a Unit then as Wint said, you begin to build the physical properties to implement and to facilitate that kind of proposition. From that came the idea that like individual people, there are some Troops that are pretty immature, pretty unskilled and you better give them a startup experience where they have maximum support and the pattern of real camping. Then there are some pretty good Troops, some better than good Troops, and some Troops that are entirely autonomous and completely independent. We built then a staging series of places down the lake where a Troop could grow up in and from and always have the ambition to get to do it themselves.
In American Scout camping, it always was that the entire Program revolved around the waterfront. Logistically, all the Guppies who couldn’t swim went together to the waterfront for a separate class to get training in how to swim from the waterfront instructor. On up the line and then you had a life-saving class for the whole Camp and so forth.
Stop and think for a moment that what you were going to do to the life structure of a Troop. If every hour of the day, some slice of competence, in whatever skill is cut out of the optimum operating fabric and you send all the little kids down to the waterfront through this hour.
Then all the medium ability kids would go down to the waterfront. Well, where then is the integrity of the team experience of the Troop? The American Red Cross operated that way.
Orly:
Many Point is the first place in the whole United States where a Troop was going to the water site as a Troop. They’d go to the Water-master, and they did these things as a Troop on the waterfront. That was part of the staging thing. Later individual Troops developed their water site for swimming, and the Water-master came to them.
An example of this Troop system was part of the same experience that was carried out in eating. When they came here in Buckskin, they prepared their breakfast. They ate lunch and dinner in the Dining Hall. When a Troop moved down to the next Area, two meals were brought to them prepared, but they did them at their campsite. Farther down the Camp, those Troops did all their cooking, and they came back to the country store (Trading Post) to buy their provisions, just like if they were on the frontier. Everything at Camp was done in a manner to enable the Troop to operate as an entity and to grow its leadership.
It goes back to what Wint said in his opening remarks. The thing that was radical here and its implementation was the idea that we would start with the Troop back home in its District. We would work with the Troops to develop who was going to be their organizational structure Troop staff at Camp? Who was going to be the Scoutmaster; the Assistant Scoutmaster and so-forth? Who was going to be the Senior Patrol Leader; Patrol Leaders and so-forth?
It was created to procure and build sound Troop leadership on a continuity basis. Always the purpose and the function ahead of the physical property and ahead of the pattern of behavior in the staff and the truth and on the Reservation That was the critical thing. (Many Point has been known as a Scout Camp. The National BSA used the term, Scout Reservation with several Camps or sub-camps.)
Family Camp was built to enable Scoutmasters who were giving up their vacations to bring their families here; at least have their families available, but to preserve the integrity and the continuity of Troop leadership.
Brent:
Unless I hear distant thunder, Boots’ stomach is growling. So, we’re going to be cutting this off in a few minutes. We’re approaching dinner, and I would like to surprise each of you with a question. If you could tell a brief story about the person on your right and a short story about your experience at Many Point; let’s start with Orly, and you’ll have to think about Boots.
Orly: There is such a wealth of things I can talk about; I only wish we had more time.
Boots (interrupted) Can I talk about him, Orly?
Brent: Sure.
Boots:
Two guys from across the lake, Scotty & Brownie thought I was nuts to try to build a Camp out of this wilderness. One time Scotty, Brownie, Orly and I went up to a store on Elbow Lake.
Boots:
The first thing Orly did was pick up a grapefruit and starting playing baseball with it. Then we came back home, and I went to bed. The people up there (Elbow Lake), knew we were nuts, playing baseball with a grapefruit.
Brent: Orly, does that bring something to mind?
Orly:
My favorite thing in that first year, Boots and Wint came to me and said, “This very first year, very first session, you’ve got to do something dramatic that will grab these people and shape their attitudes, their initiatives and so forth. Boots and I got our heads together, and he noticed that I was wearing this old ivory harpoon point (harpoon point on a necklace around Orly’s neck)
We kicked it around a bit and from that, Boots went and carved out pine blanks, and in those first sessions, all the Troops were known as the “Spearhead Troops,” at this Camp. Every staff member and every leader, and every kid carved his spear point, and he wore it. Boots took me out to Secret Hill. Secret Hill is a special place out there above the Little Beaver, and that’s where we had our goodbyes.
Boots:
Orly came to me one day, and said, we’ve got to put on a spectacular demonstration at Secret Hill. He’s one of these guys when you build a campfire it isn’t a little one, (Boots stood up and held his arm above his head), it’s this high, big thing. We want something breathtaking, dazzling, wondrous, and theatrical. Help me create the right idea. So, we built the Council unlit firewood pile; with a copper tube in its center, going out some distance back in the woods, to a hub cap. Orly made his speech, gave me the high sign, I tipped this two-gallon gas can, and gasoline went down the tube. When it hit the concealed lit candle, WOSH, instant campfire. (laughter) The most significant flash you ever saw.
Orly:
Incidentally, we gathered all the Troops at the old parking lot; and in a long single line; we took them on a very winding way through the woods. The only light came from torches held by staff. There was no way to find your way out without staff showing you the way. That’s how Secret Hill remains a secret.
Nobody knew where that place was. Two months ago, I had a guy downtown, walk up to me, throw his arms around me and say, “Orly”! He was a kid that tried over five consecutive camp seasons to find where that Secret Hill was. That was the thing he remembered when he said goodbye to his Spearhead Troop.
Brent: Boots do you have a brief story about Wint?
Boots:
Wint and I got along. We would argue on different points, and we never left the table until we worked things out. I know one time we were arguing; about who was going to drive and I wasn’t going to get in unless I could drive. So, I proved to him that my theory was the best, and he said, okay, let’s do it your way, now you drive.
Boots:
One day, I was down by the Trading Post, and I started eating something. Wint said, “I didn’t hire you to eat; I hired you to get this done.” I told him; I wasn’t going that way. We got along fine, we got into arguments, and one of us won. (Boots smiled)
Orly:
Who was Wint Hartman? That needs to be a matter of history. Who was a partner and my associates on the Board when we first started talking about Hartman?
Wint Hartman was a kid in a little small town in Western Minnesota. A skinny guy that you can see in the old pictures. I came to this being sophisticated in a theatrical kind of Camp called Tonkawa. It was a Mass Provisional Camp. He grew up in that kind of environment; got a pretty good education, and he was an innovator. I had a Troop of my own. Wint knew some of us Independent Troops. He saw this Independent Troop thing, and he experimented with it.
Wint had this dream and experimented with Troop camping; with its purpose and what it could do for the stability and long-range development of the Council. It was Wint that had these ideas. When Wint went from here, he did the same thing at Philadelphia, at Wilmington and Del Marva Peninsula with the DuPont money. He did it in Chicago, he did it in New York, and at least three of those facilities in American Camping based on this proposition were eight to ten times the size of this one. Wint Hartman, was on the National scene taking this experience through the whole Eastern half of the United States. Camping propositions then propagated themselves into what we see today in
American camping. He is an innovator, sometimes a radical; and sometimes at the American Camping Association. Somebody to be feared. He was a member of the National Staff. He was the principal Director of Camping for the National staff for many years and what he did and learned here. It goes on forever, that’s Hartman.
Brent: That’s quite a testimonial. Do you have some words about Maury?
Wint:
I was thinking about that first season. Fact is that we rode up here this afternoon, I was relating to Orly about a walk that Maury and I took across the lawn, the one of the administration building when we were three days of opening the Camp. The contractor was behind; it was raining, and we had all these troubles. The floor in the administration building was just dirt. As Maury told you, they poured the floor just before the kids came. I remember it because Maury and I had been going through a lot of these things. He said to me as we walked across the lawn on the way back to our cabins, he said, “What kind of guy are you?” I said, “What are you talking about?” He said, “You’re so calm about this,
are you all churned up inside?” That, of course, we were all churned up a little bit inside.
I want to tell you a story about Sievert. Sievert has many skills, among them is that he’s a great kidder. There was a fellow by the name of Glen Wallace, who was the architect that worked with us. Glen was a very nice guy, but he wasn’t very used to the wilderness. He made many contributions to what you see here. One evening, Glen Wallace, Sievert and I went in a boat back in Fish Hook Bay to catch some panfish back by the old railroad piers.
Wint:
When we got close to the pilings, a tremendous big Northern came up and swam with his tail out of the water on the right side of the boat. Sievert grabbed the oar and jumped up and threw it down on the water like that. (made a significant smashing motion.) Gone was the fish by the time the oar hit the water. Siefert looked at Glen and said, “By golly, I tell you it’s dangerous out here.” (big laughs)
Brent: Maury, do you know a story about Sievert?
Maury:
I never got to know Sievert, because he was so busy doing his job and I was so busy doing my job.
Brent
Sievert, you’ve been taking a couple of shots over here. Do you have a comment about this gentleman? Would you like to get even?
Sievert:
Oh yes, this is about Wint Hartman when he went to Europe on vacation. He landed in Paris and was walking by one of those sidewalk cafes and said it might be fun eating outside here. So yeah, they all sat down and ordered dinner and the guy took their order. He brought their soup. They started to eat their bowl of soup, and it began to rain, and it took them a half-hour to eat the soup in the rain. (laughter) That’s all I got.
Brent:
On behalf of the Many Point Staff Alumni Association, the 1,700 Staff members that followed you and tens of thousands of Scouts that have enjoyed significant experiences at Many Point, I’d like to thank you for what you did and what you continue to do.
(Applause)
Thanks go out to Brent L. Martin for being the Host, Master of Ceremonies of the 1985 interview, and editing this printed version. Thanks also to Douglas Palmer for the Betamax videotaping the initial discussion.